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<!-- received="Fri Aug 13 14:46:14 1999 PDT" -->
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<!-- sent="Fri, 13 Aug 1999 23:21:33 +0200" -->
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<!-- name="Oliver Rauch" -->
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<!-- email="oliver.rauch@Wolfsburg.DE" -->
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<!-- subject="[Fwd: Re: Discussion about SANE and TWAIN...]" -->
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<!-- inreplyto="Re: Discussion about SANE and TWAIN...]" -->
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<title>sane-devel: [Fwd: Re: Discussion about SANE and TWAIN...]</title>
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<h1>[Fwd: Re: Discussion about SANE and TWAIN...]</h1>
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<b>Oliver Rauch</b> (<a href="mailto:oliver.rauch@Wolfsburg.DE"><i>oliver.rauch@Wolfsburg.DE</i></a>)<br>
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<i>Fri, 13 Aug 1999 23:21:33 +0200</i>
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<p>
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<ul>
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<li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> <a href="date.html#134">[ date ]</a><a href="index.html#134">[ thread ]</a><a href="subject.html#134">[ subject ]</a><a href="author.html#134">[ author ]</a>
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<li> <b>Next message:</b> <a href="0135.html">Oliver Rauch: "Re: Starting a discussion about SANE and TWAIN..."</a>
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<li> <b>Previous message:</b> <a href="0133.html">Oliver Rauch: "[Fwd: Discussion about SANE and TWAIN...]"</a>
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-------- Original Message --------<br>
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Subject: Re: Discussion about SANE and TWAIN...<br>
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Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 22:19:17 +0200<br>
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From: Oliver Rauch <<a href="mailto:oliver.rauch@wolfsburg.de">oliver.rauch@wolfsburg.de</a>><br>
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To: <a href="mailto:252353N@knotes.kodak.com">252353N@knotes.kodak.com</a><br>
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References: <852567CB.004CFAB0.00@knotes.kodak.com><br>
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<p>
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<a href="mailto:252353N@knotes.kodak.com">252353N@knotes.kodak.com</a> wrote:<br>
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<p>
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<i>></i><br>
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<i>> Actually, it could be done today. The problem is</i><br>
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<i>> that many Source's do not offer the programmatic</i><br>
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<i>> control to make it as clean as one could hope.</i><br>
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<i>> In part this is because of TWAIN's success. We</i><br>
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<i>> are fully compatible from TWAIN 1.0 to TWAIN 1.8</i><br>
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<i>> on the Source and application sides. This means</i><br>
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<i>> that Sources written years ago are still quite</i><br>
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<i>> viable today. Still, there are a growing number</i><br>
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<i>> of Sources being written now that would probably</i><br>
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<i>> work quite well as backends to SANE, so it may be</i><br>
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<i>> worth considering a generic SANE using TWAIN driver...</i><br>
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<p>
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<i>></i><br>
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<i>> As for the GUIs. TWAIN offers extremely minimal</i><br>
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<i>> advice on the design of the GUI. Which is why they</i><br>
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<i>> all look so different.</i><br>
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<p>
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That is the same with SANE. The backends define<br>
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the options(buttons, sliders, menus) and the frontend<br>
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has to display the options.<br>
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<p>
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<p>
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<i>> There is no standard design</i><br>
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<i>> for a TWAIN GUI, and the only ones that exist</i><br>
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<i>> independent of a Source are in the applications, and</i><br>
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<i>> there are no standards driving them, either...</i><br>
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<p>
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Is it possible to create a GUI in the application<br>
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layer that supports all functions the driver supports in<br>
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its own GUI?<br>
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<p>
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<i>></i><br>
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<i>> As for the TWAIN-using-SANE and SANE-using-TWAIN</i><br>
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<i>> generic drivers. In the first case there would be</i><br>
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<i>> a GUI provided in the TWAIN layer. This GUI would</i><br>
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<i>> be common to all devices for that Source. There</i><br>
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<i>> would be no device specific GUI from the SANE</i><br>
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<i>> layer (unless there is a mechanism for doing this</i><br>
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<i>> that I am unaware of).</i><br>
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<p>
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I am working on a X/gtk-based frontend (GUI) for sane<br>
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that makes available all functions a good GUI should have.<br>
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May be it would be a good start to add the<br>
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TWAIN-driver<->source-selection interface<br>
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to my frontend. This way we already would have the driver<br>
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layer on unix machines.<br>
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<p>
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If you like to take a look at the frontend (xsane)<br>
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take a look at<br>
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<a href="http://www.wolfsburg.de/~rauch/sane/sane-xsane.html">http://www.wolfsburg.de/~rauch/sane/sane-xsane.html</a><br>
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<p>
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If it would be interesting to add different GUIs for different<br>
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sane devices, the best way would be to create different<br>
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"TWAIN uses SANE"-drivers with different GUIs and<br>
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the user could select the GUI by the TWAIN source selection.<br>
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Of course a sane frontend also could decide to support only one<br>
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backend, this way a device could get its own frontend.<br>
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<p>
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<p>
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<i>> Adaptec's Advanced SCSI Programming Interface (ASPI) is the</i><br>
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<i>> de facto standard for SCSI communication on Windows platforms.</i><br>
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<i>> Microsoft has presented their Still Image Technology (STI)</i><br>
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<i>> as a replacement for ASPI. So there are no lack of standards</i><br>
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<i>> there. :) I would expect Macintosh to have a stanardized</i><br>
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<i>> mechanism for SCSI, so modifying the SANE backend to deal with</i><br>
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<i>> each of these alternatives should not be overly burdensome.</i><br>
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<i>></i><br>
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<i>> There is currently no standard for deal with parallel driven</i><br>
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<i>> scanner drivers. So tackling this area would most likely</i><br>
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<i>> continue to be a problem.</i><br>
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<i>></i><br>
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<i>> As for USB, it is well defined on WIN32 and Macintosh. It</i><br>
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<i>> would be nice to see some effort towards standardizing access</i><br>
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<i>> to it on UNIX, since it is the physical connection for small</i><br>
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<i>> scanners and digital cameras for the foreseeable future. The</i><br>
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<i>> fact that WIN32 and Macintosh have standardized ways of</i><br>
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<i>> accessing USB means that a SANE driver on those platforms</i><br>
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<i>> could leverage off that advantage today.</i><br>
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<p>
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I think it is no problem to add an ASPI support to sanei_scsi<br>
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so the support for scsi scanners under windows is no problem.<br>
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It should also be no problem to add the scsi support for Mac.<br>
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<p>
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As far as I know linux-2.4.x will have a generic USB driver.<br>
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I think most other unix system do not have a USB driver at all.<br>
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May be linux sets the standard for USB drivers on unix systems.<br>
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<p>
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The low level communication over the parallel port is relative simple<br>
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so I think there will be no great problem with this when the scanner<br>
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manufacterers give us the parallel port protocol of their scanners.<br>
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<p>
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<p>
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<i>> Unfortunately my technical experience with SANE is very</i><br>
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<i>> limited at the moment. I have perused the website and</i><br>
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<i>> gathered some information on it. I would be very</i><br>
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<i>> interested in any recommended sample code that I could</i><br>
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<i>> see, as that would significantly increase my understanding</i><br>
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<i>> of SANE, as well as give me a better idea of how far away</i><br>
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<i>> we are at an engineering level from achieving some of the</i><br>
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<i>> ideas we've discussed these last two days...</i><br>
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<p>
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Do you have a unix machine or a program that can<br>
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decompress gnu-zip and tar files?<br>
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<p>
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If not I will transform them for you ( (pk)zip-format?)<br>
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Can you display dvi or postscript files?<br>
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<p>
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<p>
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<i>> Many thanks for your reply Oliver. And let me take a</i><br>
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<i>> moment to say thanks again to Andy and Petter for their</i><br>
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<i>> comments. I was not sure how this interaction between</i><br>
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<i>> our groups was going to develop, and while there is a</i><br>
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<i>> lot to learn and do, I appreciate the time you are all</i><br>
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<i>> taking to investigate this opportunity...</i><br>
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<p>
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I hope that we will not only discuss and investigate<br>
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the opportunity. We should go and make a working<br>
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TWAIN interface on unix machines as the first step<br>
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and we should do this soon!<br>
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<p>
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<p>
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<i>> If you get a chance, could you describe to me please the</i><br>
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<i>> layout of the SANE group? Do its members ever meet? Is</i><br>
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<i>> it an official entity (in the legal sense) in any way</i><br>
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<i>> (that is, with elected officers, keepers of documents,</i><br>
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<i>> code, etc)?</i><br>
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<p>
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The sane group is not an offical entitiy. David Mosberger<br>
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is one of the initiators of the sane standard and if there<br>
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is something like a leader of our project, I would say that<br>
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David is it. He takes care about the SANE standard and<br>
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makes new source code releases of SANE.<br>
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<p>
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The communication is done via the sane-devel mailling list.<br>
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<p>
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<p>
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In general there is one programmer for a backend (driver),<br>
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we have about 20 backends in the recent distribution.<br>
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<p>
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There are more backens developed and available on the web, they<br>
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are in alpha state and not included into the official release.<br>
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<p>
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<p>
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<i>> The question is only to sate my curiousity (I've this</i><br>
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<i>> feeling that if these discussions proceed to their</i><br>
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<i>> potential outcome that I will be writing a SANE driver</i><br>
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<i>> eventually)... :)</i><br>
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<p>
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I think it would make the discussions and the progress<br>
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to connect TWAIN and SANE more easy if one of our group<br>
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knows the TWAIN standard and one of the TWAIN<br>
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group (YOU) knows the SANE standard very well.<br>
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<p>
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<p>
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<i>> The TWAIN Working Group is a consortium of companies. We</i><br>
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<i>> are a not-for-profit group. We meet quarterly and have</i><br>
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<i>> weekly conference calls. There are currently five</i><br>
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<i>> sub-committees: marketing, macintosh, technical, toolkit</i><br>
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<i>> and testing, and they each have their own tasks and</i><br>
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<i>> weekly conference calls.</i><br>
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<p>
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As far as I see the in TWAIN Working Group there are<br>
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only the companies of the scanner manufacterers. Are there<br>
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also members of the application site?<br>
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<p>
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Bye<br>
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Oliver<br>
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<p>
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<pre>
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--
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EMAIL: <a href="mailto:Oliver.Rauch@Wolfsburg.DE">Oliver.Rauch@Wolfsburg.DE</a>
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WWW: <a href="http://www.wolfsburg.de/~rauch">http://www.wolfsburg.de/~rauch</a>
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<p>
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<pre>
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--
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Source code, list archive, and docs: <a href="http://www.mostang.com/sane/">http://www.mostang.com/sane/</a>
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</pre>
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<ul>
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<!-- next="start" -->
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<li> <b>Next message:</b> <a href="0135.html">Oliver Rauch: "Re: Starting a discussion about SANE and TWAIN..."</a>
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<li> <b>Previous message:</b> <a href="0133.html">Oliver Rauch: "[Fwd: Discussion about SANE and TWAIN...]"</a>
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